«If people cannot speak or write about what they consider important, the entire country suffers». The Swiss Ambassador to Uzbekistan, Konstantin Obolensky

Swiss businesses are showing increased interest in investing in Uzbekistan, and trade turnover between the two countries shows active growth, increasing by 150% since the coronavirus pandemic. This insight was shared by Swiss Ambassador to Uzbekistan, Konstantin Obolensky, in an exclusive interview with Kirill Altman, the Editor-in-Chief of POLITIK Central Asia, on the eve of the New Year 2025. During the conversation, the diplomat revealed details of the restitution of Gulnara Karimova’s funds to the Uzbek people, spoke about the prospects for bilateral cooperation and the benefits of professional education, and explained why one should not be afraid of freedom of speech and gender equality.

K.A.: Mr. Ambassador, how did you end up in Uzbekistan? Did you have a choice, or were you simply appointed?

K.O.: We usually apply for open jobs in the Swiss Foreign Service. When I saw that there was a possibility of becoming an Ambassador to Uzbekistan, I was immediately fascinated. I have served in other countries where there is a large Russian-speaking community, so I thought it would be easy for me to get to know people and interact with people, but then also there are bilateral issues between Switzerland and Uzbekistan that are fascinating, and that is why I applied. I was very happy to receive the appointment from the Federal Council.

K.A.: As far as I know, you were in Armenia for a long time before this.

K.O.: Well, usually, our posts last four years as diplomats. So Yes, twelve years ago, I was in Armenia. I opened and set up our Embassy there and was our first resident ambassador there (before the establishment of a full-fledged Swiss embassy in Armenia in 2011, there was a Swiss diplomatic office in Yerevan, headed by Konstantin Obolensky. — POLITIK Central Asia). Later, after Armenia, I returned to the headquarters and supervised the three Baltic countries from Latvia.

K.A.: Is there anything in common between the post-Soviet countries? Between Armenia and Uzbekistan or the Baltic countries?

K.O.: I think, yes, there are certain similarities, and obviously also, there are some differences. Cultural differences. All countries, of course, have taken their own path and at their own speed with reform, but certain things are obvious. You will see the Khuruschevki in many parts of the former Soviet Union. However, I think what is important is also not to compare, let’s say, Armenia 15 years ago with Uzbekistan now or so. In many places of the former Soviet Union, the first few years after the dissolution of the union were dramatic for many. Not everybody can easily cope with drastic changes, and this is, of course, understandable.

K.A.: You have been in Uzbekistan for four years now. How do you assess your three years of work in the country? Is there anything you are proud of, let’s say?

K.O.: The work in Uzbekistan is extremely intense. This is naturally connected to the pace of reforms in the country. When I arrived here in 2021, the COVID-19 pandemic was nearing its end, and life was becoming more dynamic again. Regarding the various areas of work at the Embassy, they include issues of economics, politics, and development cooperation, which Switzerland is also engaged in within Uzbekistan.

As for the economy, the trade volume between Switzerland and Uzbekistan has increased by 150% since the pandemic. This is excellent news, and the trend remains positive. I am also glad that we have introduced Swiss Days in Tashkent. This event takes place every November, and a few weeks ago, we held it for the third time. During Swiss Days, we bring Swiss companies and their products and services to Uzbekistan and help them find partners here. Swiss companies are famous for their quality and innovations. Switzerland has been recognized as the most innovative country in the world for the 14th time by the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). This recognition from WIPO—a global organization, not an NGO—highlights the importance of Swiss quality, reliability, and innovations for Uzbekistan’s development.

This is regarding the economic part.

There is also a political component. In this area, we have important matters as well. One of them, aside from maintaining good relations with Uzbekistan, involves cooperation in restitution. Funds linked to Gulnara Karimova that were transferred to Switzerland are being returned to Uzbekistan. The restitution process is carried out through legal procedures in Switzerland, and for part of the funds, these procedures are still ongoing. The return of these funds is implemented through a tool developed by Switzerland, Uzbekistan, and the UN—the so-called Vision-2030 Multipartner Trust Fund, or Ishonch Fund. Its goal is to return the funds belonging to Uzbekistan to its people.

K.A.: I was planning to discuss Gulnara Karimova later, but since you’ve already brought it up—was it absolutely necessary to establish such a fund to return the money? Is this tied to legal regulations?

K.O.: Switzerland has quite some experience with restitutions for over three decades, and in our strategy, it is always very important that these funds that were stolen from the population of a given country really actually end up to the benefit of the population of that country.

K.A.: Are you planning to monitor how the funds will be spent in the future? Am I correct in understanding that there is a fund aimed at reducing preventable deaths?

K.O.: Who can take money for projects from that fund? The funds are available to UN organizations. In collaboration with Uzbekistan and Switzerland, the UN organizations have identified the priorities for this fund, which are health and education. Given Uzbekistan’s young and growing population, this is a forward-looking decision, and projects are being implemented in line with these priorities. It is also crucial that these projects include a strong anti-corruption component. It is essential to ensure that there is no corruption in the implementation of these projects. Additionally, the population who will benefit from the services funded by these projects should understand that these services are free and do not require any payment.

K.A.: As far as we know, by the end of 2023, the volume of Swiss investments amounted to almost $1.5 billion. Are there any figures for the end of 2024?

K.O.: No, we do not know any numbers yet. These are usually only produced early in the year to come, but what we see really is this trend: more and more trade and investments are increasing.

K.A.: Interestingly, Switzerland is a conservative country in terms of business. But at the same time, both the volume of investments and the number of companies investing here are growing. Does this indicate trust in our country?   

K.O.: This is indeed an important element. Another crucial factor is business opportunities. In a country with a dynamically developing economy, where investments come not only from other nations but also from Uzbekistan itself, alongside international financial institutions, significant investments are being directed toward the energy sector, construction, and infrastructure.

K.A.: Pharmaceuticals.

K.O.: Yes, in healthcare and pharmaceuticals. Uzbekistan is actively investing in its future, and, of course, Swiss companies offer high-quality, reliable, and innovative solutions that meet these goals.

K.A.: In which sectors could we increase trade turnover?

K.O.: The sectors of investment are quite diverse. First, there is the pharmaceutical industry, which you have already discussed. Uzbekistan is increasing its investments in public health, leading to higher health expenditures, and Swiss companies have excellent offerings in this area. Additionally, consumer goods, particularly food items, are well-regarded from Switzerland—not just Swiss chocolate, but a variety of other products as well. Furthermore, there are specialized solutions available in the fields of infrastructure, transportation, and energy, including energy transmission.

K.A.: A memorandum was recently signed between Roche and Nestlé. Could you share the details of this collaboration?

K.O.: The Swiss pharmaceutical company Roche has signed an MoU with the Pharmaceutical Development Agency of Uzbekistan. So it is obviously in their filed of competence in the field of health and pharmaceuitcals. Nestle signed a tripartite Memorandum of Understanding with two Ministries: Health and Public Education of Uzbekistan. The topics are healthy nurturing and healthy foods.

K.A.: In early October, Uzbekistan’s Minister of Transport, Ilhom Makhkamov, announced that the country plans to purchase two trains from the Swiss company Stadler. These trains will be tested on the country’s railways, after which the possibility of acquiring a larger batch will be considered. What is the current stage of the project? Is there a specific agreement on the purchase of the trains?

K.O.: I think this is the question that should rather be directed to the involved parties because the government of Switzerland, as such, is facilitating the contact between the companies and the government of Uzbekistan.  

K.A.: Is the Embassy not involved in this?

K.O.: No, we are not part of the negotiations.

K.A.: However, you are aware that in 2019, there were discussions with Stadler about manufacturing passenger trains in Uzbekistan. Why didn’t the project take off?

K.O.: That is maybe the specialty of our country, but actually, what we try is to allow our companies to make the best offers that they can, but the state itself is not involved in the business. We open doors where we can, of course, and I am very sure that these offers from the Swiss companies, including the one from Stadler, are very good offers. And you see these trains rolling in many countries… Shtadler is one of the biggest train-producing companies in the world.

K.A.: But do I understand correctly that these are ordinary intercity passenger trains? Not the same type as, for example, the “Afrosiab”?

K.O.: No, it is not a super high-speed train. I think it is normal trains that run between the cities of Uzbekistan.

K.A.: It will be interesting if our government replaces the old Soviet trains with new Swiss ones.

K.O.: I think that would be very good, yes. As a passenger, I know these trains. They are used in Switzerland, but they are also used in many other countries.

K.A.: What is the cost of one train?

K.O.: I never bought a train. I do not know.

K.A.: We’ve also learned that Switzerland is renowned for its vocational education system, with one of the highest participation rates at 28%. In Uzbekistan, it’s 8%. The Ministry of Higher Education and the Swiss Embassy are implementing a project to support reforms in this area. What stage is the project at now?

K.O.: Let me take a step back. We believe that one reason for the economic success of our industry and economy is the high number of individuals engaged in vocational education and training (VET). About 70% of young people who complete their mandatory schooling do not pursue a university education. Instead, they opt for vocational education and training, where they are hired as apprentices by companies. They work in practical settings four days a week under the supervision of experienced workers, and on the fifth day, they attend a professional school to learn theoretical concepts.

This approach shapes the education of 70% of young people, and after completing their 3 to 4 years of training, they emerge as skilled professionals. This training spans various fields, including not only technical professions like plumbing and electrical work but also hospitality and different office roles. This framework is fundamental to ensuring that the Swiss economy has a solid base of highly professional individuals.

For those who are ambitious, there are opportunities to continue their studies after gaining practical experience, eventually allowing them to attend universities based on their aspirations and capabilities. This vocational education and training system is vital for building financially successful careers.

Switzerland is also extending this vocational education and training offer to Uzbekistan, where there is significant interest from local authorities in learning more about and receiving support from Switzerland in this area. However, we have observed that many families in Uzbekistan often prioritize sending their children to university. While families make the best choices for their children, Switzerland remains committed to supporting the vocational education and training system, particularly in the burgeoning tourism and hospitality sector, as it represents a vast growth opportunity in Uzbekistan.

K.A.: What stage is the project at now?

K.O.: We are at the end of the first phase, and together with our partners from the Ministry of Higher Education and Tourism, we are moving forward to the next phase.

K.A.: Do you follow what is happening with education in Uzbekistan in general?

K.O.: I think so, yes. I think it is very interesting to see. There were also things when I came here that I had not seen before, like, for instance, that there are several shifts in many schools. There are morning and afternoon shifts because of course with high number of children. Not all schools are big enough or not everywhere enough of these schools.

K.A.: It’s interesting to hear your perspective. For us, the residents of the country, it’s not entirely clear what kind of education system the government is building. What would you recommend? We understand there’s a shortage of schools and so on, but speaking more broadly?

K.O.: I think, in general, you have elements that are super important. First and foremost, every child should have access to a good school, which includes adequate buildings, sanitary facilities, and accessibility for children with special needs. Education is a fundamental right.

Next, the focus shifts to the curriculum and the methods of instruction. I have noticed significant international changes in teaching approaches. Educators are moving away from traditional, lecture-based methods to more goal-oriented and interactive styles of teaching. These observations reflect trends I have seen in many countries.

K.A.: And what about higher education? What do you think about the large number of private universities in Uzbekistan? Meanwhile, diplomas are required to meet state standards.

K.O.: The private sector plays a role in many sectors, including education in Uzbekistan. The same goes for Switzerland. We also have private education in our country. Usually, competition is stimulating. What is important is that children or young people whose families do not have the means for an expensive education also get a good and competitive education.

K.A.: But should the state be the guarantor of the quality of higher education?

K.O.: Switzerland is organized in such a way that the cantons, because of its Federalist structure, have a lot to say, so most of the universities in Switzerland are cantonal, which means the diplomas are also cantonal. In general, I believe that the state has a role in ensuring that diplomas are of a certain value and quality.

K.A.: Another topic is gender equality. I don’t know if you’ve heard, but in Uzbekistan, at some point, the term “gender equality” started to be perceived negatively. It’s often associated with “European values,” which, as you know, are not particularly favored here in Uzbekistan…

K.O.: I am very glad that you brought up the topic of European values. However, I do not see gender equality, particularly in gender issues, as a distinct European value. These values have been established by a community of countries that came together to decide on sustainable development goals, with gender equality being one of those goals, often referred to as the SDGs. Therefore, they are not specifically European values.

Additionally, the concept of the United Nations is not a European invention. The United Nations, along with its foundational documents and conventions, represents an international framework created by various countries. These are recognized as international laws and good practices.

I strongly believe that gender equality is essential. But what does gender equality mean? It signifies equal opportunities for all individuals. This means everyone should have the same possibilities, regardless of whether they are male or female. It is fundamentally about providing equal opportunities to everyone.

K.A.: Have you encountered the idea that European values are contrasted with our local mentality? There’s even a term, “Uzbek mentality.”

K.O.: As I said before, I disagree with this because we speak about fundamental rights for men, women, young people, and older adults. They are universalities that have been supported and achieved by all countries.

K.A.: But how common is it in Switzerland for fathers to take paternity leave? For us, this seems almost like a fantasy.

K.O.: For us, this is a relatively new development. I think I got one or two days off per child when I became a father. Only a few years before the paid maternity leave was introduced in Switzerland. Paid maternity leave of 4 months. Twenty years ago, that was a relatively new development. Now, there is more discussion on whether paternity leave for fathers should become longer. Currently, it is 2 weeks, and there are discussions about whether it should be combined for the parents and for a certain length or whether the mother and father should have X months. But yes, this is a political discussion in Switzerland that has not yet come to an end. 

K.A.: I think something like that is still hardly feasible for us.

K.O.: But we also live differently. Mostly, in Switzerland, people do not live in three-generation households. They live in a maximum of two-generation households. So it is a couple with their children, people alone, or a single person with their children. Obviously, there are no grandparents who look after the grandchildren, and maybe grandparents who live in another city. So, every country needs to organize itself in the best way.  

K.A.: Let’s return to the topic of Gulnara Karimova. In September 2022, Uzbek authorities announced that her assets in Switzerland, subject to seizure and restitution, amounted to $686 million. Agreements have been reached for the return of $131 million, negotiations are ongoing for $205 million, and the recovery of the remaining $350 million depends on court rulings. Could you provide an update on the progress of the asset recovery process?

K.O.: Currently, as you mentioned, 131 million has already been restituted to the Ishonch Fund, and currently, projects are been implemented with these funds. There is another tranche, as you mentioned, that has already been forfeited and confiscated, and the next steps for the restitution are very close. As for the other funds, legal proceedings are still ongoing. I cannot comment on this matter because it is a judicial issue, and as an Ambassador, I cannot say anything about it.

K.A.: Can we discuss migration issues? They are often politicized. Europe is currently facing significant challenges with migrants. Many believe that migrants take jobs and rely on taxpayers’ money. What are your thoughts on this?

K.O.: I think we have to really distinguish the reasons for migration. First of all, you have an asylum. People who are really persecuted in the countries where they live and need to find a safe place to live somewhere else, and then there is the whole working migrant. Working migrants naturally want to have jobs in other countries. In many places in Europe, including Switzerland, there is a shortage of manpower. So there is a mutual interest in working migrants coming to our countries, participating in the economic development of our countries, and at the same time, they are also sending back funds, remittances, to their families, so that is a mutually beneficial thing. What is important, of course, is that these migrants are well-educated to fit into the destination country’s labor market.

K.A.: Are there any agreements with our country on sending labor migrants to Switzerland?

K.O.: No, there are no such agreements between Switzerland and Uzbekistan.

K.A.: And none are planned?

Switzerland is surrounded by EU countries. With the EU, we have such an agreement for the free movement of persons, which means people from Switzerland can work in the EU and the other way around as well. But there is a thing that we observe here in Uzbekistan that people are alert via social media into paying high sums of money for alleged jobs, job visas, and working visas for Switzerland. Those applications that we see at the Embassy are fake. These are promises made – that these people pay a lot of money in the hope of getting a job in Switzerland but there is no such program between our two countries.

The Embassy announced on its website and on social media that people need to be very careful about whom they pay money to and whether this is a real or fake job offer that they get in Switzerland.

K.A.: Switzerland implements numerous projects in the field of art and culture in Uzbekistan. Let’s talk about them.

K.O.: We have a long-standing program that supports the independent cultural sector in Uzbekistan, and I believe it is one of our most significant initiatives. We have been providing support to the Ilkhom Theater for many years, along with other initiatives like MOK HAB. Additionally, the embassy participated in the Stihia festival. This program represents one of the key areas of Swiss support. Furthermore, we promote Swiss culture in Uzbekistan, which fosters cultural exchange between our two countries.

I can bring some examples.

K.A.: Recently there was an installation in Tashkent City Mall.

K.O.: Absolutely! The installation at Tashkent City Mall, titled “Breathe with Me,” was previously exhibited in New York and Barcelona before coming to Tashkent. Now, as I understand, it’s being shown in Miami. Tashkent has truly positioned itself among prominent cultural hubs.

K.A.: What was the idea behind the installation?

K.O.: The idea was to create a tranquil space within a bustling environment. This textile bubble, made from Swiss fabrics, provided a place where you could be inside, hearing the sounds from outside, yet feeling as if you were in a safe tent. It was a very pleasant experience, and I was delighted to open the Swiss Days together with Minister Laziz Kudratov.

Switzerland and its embassy are also involved in many other cultural events in Uzbekistan. For instance, the International Jazz Festival in Tashkent. Every year, whenever possible, we bring Swiss musicians. This year, Yumi Ito, a Swiss jazz singer, performed with her band. Additionally, this year we brought Swiss writer Peter Stamm, whose works were recently translated into Uzbek. He presented his works to the Uzbek audience and is considered one of the most renowned and widely published contemporary German-speaking authors from Switzerland.

We also hosted a wonderful photo exhibition. Earlier, we spoke about the various regions of Uzbekistan, and I recall inaugurating an exhibition of photographs by Ella Maillart at the museum in Urgench. Ella Maillart was a remarkably courageous woman who traveled alone through what is now modern Uzbekistan in the 1930s.

K.A.: Yes, I have heard about this exhibition.

K.O.: She was a photojournalist. Her photographs are truly fantastic, and we were able to showcase them in various cities across the country, including Samarkand, Tashkent, Bukhara, and Urgench.

K.A.: Another important issue is the environment. What are your thoughts on the environmental situation in our capital? Are you keeping track of what’s happening?

K.O.: Yes, of course. I think, as all inhabitants of the capital, we all feel that in winter, the air is getting worse, but that is very subjective, even though I have the impression that it is getting worse every year. That is because, of course, it is a very dynamic city. There are a lot of construction and industrial activities and it is a growing city, but of course, the air is one of the issues, but that is not the only issue. Let’s look at the wider picture. When we look at Uzbekistan’s water resources, It is vital for life, in general, but also vital for the large agricultural sector of Uzbekistan. Climate change really affects water resources. Maybe not the amount of water, but at what stage of the crop year is the water available, e.g., for irrigation? So that means that the water needs to be used in a moral careful, equitable and sustainable way.

K.A.: Are any joint programs on water resources expected?

K.O.: Switzerland has been cooperating with Uzbekistan for many years in the field of water management and preservation, both for drinking water and irrigation, which consumes 90% of the country’s water resources. To support Uzbek authorities, we are developing a comprehensive water strategy and a water code, as well as fostering collaboration among various stakeholders to effectively manage this precious resource.

It’s important to recognize that water issues often have a regional dimension, as water flows do not adhere to man-made borders. In order to promote regional cohesion among Central Asian states, Switzerland has implemented the Blue Peace Program. This year, we took a significant step by opening jointly managed water gauging stations on the border between Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. This development is crucial in addressing discussions regarding the water flow between the two countries and represents an investment in peace within Central Asia.

K.A.: Can the issue of air quality be resolved? After all, we can’t stop construction, shut down greenhouses, and so on.

K.O.: Human existence is creating problems. This is probably not possible to have otherwise, but the amount of ecological problems can be reduced, and the amount of ecological footprint can and must be reduced. You see it with filters, for instance, that can be introduced into large factories and construction. The dust from the construction, for example, can be caught by advance machinery, and this is taking place in other countries. When we look at the way how waste is managed in different countries, in Uzbekistan, waste management is a very pressing issue. There are countries and companies from countries that have very advanced possibilities in solving these problems.

K.A.: In June, Ukraine hosted a Peace Summit at the Swiss resort of Bürgenstock, presenting a ten-point formula aimed at resolving the Russia-Ukraine conflict. How would you assess the outcomes of the summit?

K.O.: This summit was very important, and Switzerland has put a lot of effort into it. 131 countries were present at that summit and many of them at a very senior level, meaning head of government or head of state. When it comes to the summit in Burgenstock and even afterward, Switzerland continues to be ready to offer its good offices and to support finding a peaceful solution to that conflict. For us, it is very important that the next steps are concrete and also these next steps would involve all parties to the conflict, including Russia.

K.A.: Why didn’t Uzbekistan participate? Was our country invited?

K.O.: Practically all countries of the world have been invited. We have discussed this issue with the authorities of Uzbekistan, but…. yes, I mean…, the invitation was there.

K.A.: But we didn’t go. Do you know why? Rwanda, Somalia, and Ethiopia were there, but Uzbekistan wasn’t.

K.O.: As I said, most countries, including Uzbekistan, have been invited, and many countries have followed our invitation.

K.A.: Is there a plan to invite Russia to the next summit?

K.O.: We are currently not planning the next summit, but for Switzerland, it is crucial that in the future of this process that should lead to peace in Ukraine, the Russian Federation would also be involved.

K.A.: Switzerland is one of the world leaders in freedom of speech, ranking ninth in the Reporters Without Borders index. Uzbekistan, on the other hand, has seen its position decline in recent years and is now ranked 148th. Do you think we could ever make it into the top 50 in the freedom of speech rankings?

K.O.: Everything is possible. The value of freedom of speech is very high, and if people are not allowed or if people feel that they are not allowed to say or to write what they think is important, then the country and the society actually suffer from them, because a lot of good ideas and discussions do not materialize, so I think it is in the interest of every society to increase the freedom of speech as much as possible.

Everything is possible. The value of freedom of speech is extremely high. If people are not allowed or feel they are not allowed, to speak or write about what they consider important, the entire country and society suffer, as many good ideas and discussions do not materialize. So, I think that expanding freedom of speech as much as possible is in the best interest of any society.

K.A.: Are there any plans for joint programs specifically related to journalism? K.O.: The Embassy is supporting a program by UNESCO, which is exactly also touching these issues of journalism and freedom of speech.

Kirill Altman

Journalist, blogger, author of the YouTube project Alter Ego, author of the Telegram channel altmanews, editor-in-chief of POLITIK Central Asia

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